Take The Hook
I don't usually post other people's work, but Ann Coulter's last piece was too good to pass up. In debate circles there is something called a "hook". Basically the best way to lure your opponent into a trap is to lead them to ask a specific question or raise a specific point. Coulter is a master at this, every piece she does has a statement or adjective that draws out her opponents out and forces them to counter with a weak point.
Coulter used the term "mindless patriotism" to draw out her critics and I piggybacked on that in order to counter with one question. When is it logical and necessary to hate your country? I assert that patriotism is the love of ones country so therefore the opposite of patriotism is to hate your country.
This blogs favorite topic is the lack of patriotism among the left. I am amazed how in a country where you can leave at any time and emigrate to a host of other nations, do you have no love for America. Look at the flag burning issue. During the Clinton administration, where there conservatives burning flags? Did the Young Republicans come out and decry our nation and burn its flag? I have never heard of a single flag burning by a conservative group. Liberals will counter with "I love my freedom, so therefore I burn the flag of the nation that protects said freedom". That is like saying you beat your wife because you love her.
So perhaps Coulter's use of the word mindless is insulting to those of us who can never imagine libeling our nation, I would replace it with loyal or even say my patriotism is worth my life (regardless of what political party is in office). But then again, thats not much of a conversation starter.
posted by rusty shakelford at 6:50 PM
16 Comments:
Do you love your children (or friends, if you don't have kids)?
If they misbehave, will you continue to praise them and say how good they're doing (because you don't want to be accused of not loving your children, right?) OR will you correct them, firmly and soundly if necessary?
Please.
We all know that we call our loved ones on the carpet when they've done wrong and that to do so doesn't mean we don't love them. In fact, NOT doing so would indicate a lack of adult love.
I've never met a liberal who hates our beloved nation. We just want her to live up to our ideals and won't hesitate to criticize our policies when they're wrong.
You're strawmanning here. It's much more fun to hate liberals if they actually hate our country and are siding with the terrorists. Dealing with the reality that liberals are patriots calling for us to act like the great nation that we are is more difficult for many of those who identify themselves as conservatives, but it's reality.
Straw Man: (n) A point, made during an argument between a Conservative and a Liberal, which points out the stupidity, hypocricy, or intellectual dishonesty of the Liberal.
(See also: Red Herring.)
Dan if your children misbehave do you go to other peoples homes (who don't like your kids) and slander them? Clinton, Gore and Carter did.
Do you burn your children's image in effigy, as so many liberal groups have done to the US?
Do you try it weaken your children's ability to survive by exposing secrets that could endanger your children as so many leakers have done to the US?
Perhaps you love your children so much you applaud there enemies, so when your children get hurt that will show them the error of their ways.
"Do you burn your children's image in effigy, as so many liberal groups have done to the US?"
Oh? How many? Hundreds? Dozens? A handful?
I'm guessing closer to a handful, if that many.
This, like your other comments ("Perhaps you love your children so much you applaud there enemies,") is a red herring (as pointed out above), choosing the actions of a few to make your argument, ignoring the larger more important point.
I'll state it again: It is correct to not allow misbehavior - especially if that misbehavior might be reaching the level of criminality. And one way we do that in our beloved free nation - when our leaders are failing to follow the people - is to protest, to demonstrate, to take actions to forcibly stop the bad behavior.
To do anything less would be to betray our beloved nation.
Dan the Christian Pacifist Patriot calling for people to takeactions to forcibly stop the bad behavior.
I guess the only appropriate place for force is when exercised against your own Government, right Dan?
And leaders, by definition, do not "follow the people".
They LEAD.
Which leaders, specifically, are you talking about anyway?
The Bush Administration?
Look at the numbers again, Dan.
In the last election, more people voted for President Bush than have ever voted for any other President in the History of America.
Approval numbers mean nothing. They are simply how the News Media guages their own effectiveness.
The course of the Nation is decided by Elections, and Liberals do not win any.
Criminality? You mean it is now a Criminal Offense to pursue a War that was approved by both the Congress and the Senate, and was undertaken in order to enforce no less than 17 U.N. Resolutions?
Your last few comments, Dan, make absolutely no sense, so I will dismiss them as the ravings of a madman, who feels disenfranchised because he cannot convince the whole World to buy into his own madness.
Now. Was my argument a Red Herring, or a Straw Man?
Or will you simply resort to chanting "Bush lied, people died?"
Some very excellent points here. The "Peace Loving Hippies" are all about bringing peace to the world. Funny though how they are so willing to riot, loot, and burn flags in the street to bring down the "System" man!
I couldn't even for a moment, fathom the idea of burning my beloved flag! What a spit in the face of every veteran who has rallied around it!!
They have no idea what honor, courage, esprit de corps, or fortitude really means.
It's easier to rant and rave about how much you deserve to get, while others are out putting there life on the line providing it for you!
Evil reigns while good men stand idley by and do nothing! Oh wait, maybe we can stop evil in our time by just yelling, "Peace on Earth" loud enough. If we just walk the streets of America enough times, carrying our "Peace to the World" signs, evil will suddenly run and hide.
"Your last few comments, Dan, make absolutely no sense, so I will dismiss them as the ravings of a madman"
Then...I...will...write...them...
slower ...so you ... can understand.
Rusty's original post...talked about... Coulter's use... of the words... "mindless patriotism..."
I'm saying... we always, always, always must oppose...disagree with... stand against ... mindless patriotism.
As Thomas Paine said:
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from the government.
As Teddy Roosevelt said:
"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President."
And, as GK Chesterton said:
"My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober."
Is... that...better?
[with apologies for failing to turn the other cheek]
A madman is still a madman, no matter how slow he types.
And don't bother turning the other cheek with me.
Phony christianity is sickening to me.
You know the state of my eternal soul?
Don't bother answering. Phony deism is a tad annoying (I don't take your criticisms seriously enough to be sickened).
But honestly, can't you join me in standing in opposition to mindless patriotism? I don't think I'm saying anything especially radical here.
I've addressed Rusty's point several times here and all you all have done is make personal attacks for reasons unknown.
The point again is that it is a good thing to criticize our country when it's wrong. It would be wrong to NOT criticize it when it's gone wrong.
Can't you agree with this very patriotic statement? Without ad hominem attacks or strawman or red herring arguments?
Responding to attacks from Ann Coulter is like playing with mercury. You can never alter its state, and it will make you sick.
It is so lame to fall for her "hooks," and even waste you breathe responding them.
Those of us who oppose the Bush Administration, don't hate our country, we're opposed to our Government, its policies, and its actions, period.
"Mindless Patriotism" is an oxymoron, for to be mindless is not being a patriot, and to be a patriot, is not being mindless.
Those that support a regime, mindlessly, are not patriots, they would be called nationalists.
"In the last election, more people voted for President Bush than have ever voted for any other President in the History of America."
Well, that's still up for debate, as there is no way for you or anyone else to verify the election results for 2004. John Kerry also received more votes than any other President in the History of America. And unless more of us pay attention to what electronic voting has done to our democracy, we will continue to have unverifiable elections, with declared winners, and no way to prove or disprove the results.
"Dan if your children misbehave do you go to other peoples homes (who don't like your kids) and slander them? Clinton, Gore and Carter did."
I would hardly call speaking truth as slander, but that's what liars always say about those who speak to their lies.
"Do you try it weaken your children's ability to survive by exposing secrets that could endanger your children as so many leakers have done to the US?"
Who did the "leakers" endanger?
It's interesting to note that Valerie Plame was involved in monitoring Iran's weapons capabilities, yet in classic Bush fashion, this administration thought it would be better to try and discredit a critic of it's policies, than to actually know what Iran's weapons capabilities are, by blowing her cover.
It's so classic, the way this administration loves to charge blindly into battle without the slightest bit of intelligence from the ground.
"Criminality? You mean it is now a Criminal Offense to pursue a War that was approved by both the Congress and the Senate, and was undertaken in order to enforce no less than 17 U.N. Resolutions?"
Approval that was based on fabricated, and unsubstantiated intelligence, and the U.N. didn't give us the authority to enforce those resolutions.
Let's recap:
9/11 was foreseen by both the Clinton and Bush administrations, the FBI had agents close to the hijackers, even living with one of them; NORAD conducted numerous exercises based on planes flying into buildings. Remember the reports of all the put orders made on airline stocks before 9/11? The SEC was supposed to find out who made those put orders, still no report.
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, didn't have WMD, or pose any more of a gathering threat to our country than it did in the first Gulf War.
Violence begets violence, yet Israel hasn't learned this in over 50 years of violence with its neighbors, and it's something that apparently none of you "mindless patriots" seem to grasp either.
There is a time and a place for War and now is not the time, and Iraq is not the place.
Indiscriminant killing is inexcusable, and doesn't make us better than terrorists. If you know where your enemy is, then stand toe to toe and face them head-on, it's cowardly to bomb their entire neighborhood from beyond the horizon, killing countless innocent men, women, and children, and write them off as collateral damage.
With that mindset, it would be justifiable to turn Pakistan and Afghanistan into a glass factory, just to take out Bin Laden, whom let's not forget was trained by our own CIA.
I think the real difference here, is, that I and others like me, acknowledge the misdeeds of our government, and are willing to atone for them, while others, blindly follow the failed policies of our government, in order to feel righteous.
We need to strike a balance, make peace, not war.
Sean glad to see ya back, I missed you. I did not miss your 700 word essays . Here is a suggestion write your own rebuttal on your own Blog then advertise it on mine.
Duly noted, cheers!
Who ever burns a flag in the US?
And who cares if they do?
Its protected speech under the First Amendment.
That's why America is a great country.
See ... I'm a liberal and I think America is a great country.
America is a great country because of its Constitution.
Cheer up.
Dear Rusty,
Bush seems to be arguing that a "state of emergency" exists which allows him to conduct secret warrantless searches on American citizens in violation of the 4th Amendment of the Constitution. This can, of course, extend to opening the mail of American citizens or searching their houses and installing a bug without any court warrant. The American citizen has not been arrested, indicted or charged with violating any US law.
Your thoughts?
Thanks.
This seems to be the scenario. We raid a terrorist camp or kill the #3 guy, something like that. We then go and collect all sorts of intel, cell phones, phone numbers and email address. Before word gets out (and it does get out fast) we want to know who is calling these numbers and emailing these people, especially if it is coming from someone already planted in this country. I agree with that. The President assumes he has the power to do this as one end of the communication is out of the country and congress gave 'implied powers' to fight the war on terror as he sees fit. I also agree with that, we can not lead a war with 535 Members of Congress and a commander in chief.
Anne backs up her provocative words with hard, research and facts. Have some of her detractors here read any of her books? For example, McCarthy was a Senator, and he was right (correct) there were communists in our US government who were being paid by the USSR and the USA at the same time. You can not work for two masters.
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